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	<title>Comments on: Districts begin tough budget talks</title>
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	<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks</link>
	<description>Colorado&#039;s comprehensive site for education news and analysis</description>
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		<title>By: Sharing government data, Colorado school districts edition &#171; Anne Z.</title>
		<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks/comment-page-1#comment-2904</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharing government data, Colorado school districts edition &#171; Anne Z.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 13:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ednewscolorado.org/?p=2694#comment-2904</guid>
		<description>[...] and food and entertainment for their staff or for parents or for students, especially in a time of serious budgetary problems. Most families (read: taxpayers) have to cut back right now; so should the government workers they [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and food and entertainment for their staff or for parents or for students, especially in a time of serious budgetary problems. Most families (read: taxpayers) have to cut back right now; so should the government workers they [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ritter holds the line on education cuts &#124; EdNewsColorado</title>
		<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks/comment-page-1#comment-2843</link>
		<dc:creator>Ritter holds the line on education cuts &#124; EdNewsColorado</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ednewscolorado.org/?p=2694#comment-2843</guid>
		<description>[...] 65% Districts begin tough budget talks [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 65% Districts begin tough budget talks [...]</p>
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		<title>By: tom</title>
		<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks/comment-page-1#comment-2696</link>
		<dc:creator>tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ednewscolorado.org/?p=2694#comment-2696</guid>
		<description>You get what you pay for.  Right now what Colorado has, and has had for my 36 years in the state, is an aversion to taxes.  We pay a frighteningly low percent of our incomes/ prop values for the state. Do you realize that if every Coloradan family paid one dollar a day in Colorado we would not have the massive budget shortfall we have?  1.2 million households at a dollar a day.  Some could afford it, some can&#039;t but that is how easy this problem is to solve.  I am NOT a fan of large tax increases but this is the problem.  
Two Bagger has made a few &quot;fatal flaws&quot; in his argument.  I am a teacher and am happy to tie student performance to raises as PART of the analysis.  Here&#039;s why.  When I taught at a &quot;Poor&quot; achieving school I had students in 8th grade reading at the 3rd grade level.  If I moved them to 5th grade, I still am labeled a failure as a teacher.  Not fair or equitable by a long shot.  I taught at an &quot;average&quot; high school and 9th graders were reading at 5-6th grade level.  I am now at an &quot;Excellent&quot; high school and you know what?  the only thing that has changed really is the desire of the students/ motivation of the students.  So then here is the question: Would you pay a doctor less money for patients that died from diabetes or from failing to go to chemotherapy treatments despite the doctors instructions? Of course not.  I hold to MA degrees and could make twice my salary in another job.  I already have 30-35 in a high school classroom.  In Denver one year I had 43 in ONE CLASS.  It&#039;s fine, give me 175 students a year but guess what?  I can not assign HW for 175 students and grade it every single day.  So while it might not matter via &quot;testing&quot; data come on in and see my classroom.  Yes I can manage 35 teenagers, its called being a teacher, but they get more individual attention and benefit emotionally from that attention.  That is not accounted for in the &quot;data&quot; two-bagger accounts for.
  
Oh and by the way, the students KNOW the tests don&#039;t matter, and despite bribes of food, snacks, and even CHIPOTLE Burrito cards to come on time and take the test, lots don&#039;t.  A non-CSAP testing students counts as a NEGATIVE score.  So it wipes out an Advanced students score.  Again, not fair.  So when Colorado is ready to stop wallowing in pity, and wants to have money for everything, schools included, we could do that if we wanted to.  We just would rather cry and scream about the problem and the cuts, because that&#039;s what we have learned to do. . . . but probably not in school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You get what you pay for.  Right now what Colorado has, and has had for my 36 years in the state, is an aversion to taxes.  We pay a frighteningly low percent of our incomes/ prop values for the state. Do you realize that if every Coloradan family paid one dollar a day in Colorado we would not have the massive budget shortfall we have?  1.2 million households at a dollar a day.  Some could afford it, some can&#8217;t but that is how easy this problem is to solve.  I am NOT a fan of large tax increases but this is the problem.<br />
Two Bagger has made a few &#8220;fatal flaws&#8221; in his argument.  I am a teacher and am happy to tie student performance to raises as PART of the analysis.  Here&#8217;s why.  When I taught at a &#8220;Poor&#8221; achieving school I had students in 8th grade reading at the 3rd grade level.  If I moved them to 5th grade, I still am labeled a failure as a teacher.  Not fair or equitable by a long shot.  I taught at an &#8220;average&#8221; high school and 9th graders were reading at 5-6th grade level.  I am now at an &#8220;Excellent&#8221; high school and you know what?  the only thing that has changed really is the desire of the students/ motivation of the students.  So then here is the question: Would you pay a doctor less money for patients that died from diabetes or from failing to go to chemotherapy treatments despite the doctors instructions? Of course not.  I hold to MA degrees and could make twice my salary in another job.  I already have 30-35 in a high school classroom.  In Denver one year I had 43 in ONE CLASS.  It&#8217;s fine, give me 175 students a year but guess what?  I can not assign HW for 175 students and grade it every single day.  So while it might not matter via &#8220;testing&#8221; data come on in and see my classroom.  Yes I can manage 35 teenagers, its called being a teacher, but they get more individual attention and benefit emotionally from that attention.  That is not accounted for in the &#8220;data&#8221; two-bagger accounts for.</p>
<p>Oh and by the way, the students KNOW the tests don&#8217;t matter, and despite bribes of food, snacks, and even CHIPOTLE Burrito cards to come on time and take the test, lots don&#8217;t.  A non-CSAP testing students counts as a NEGATIVE score.  So it wipes out an Advanced students score.  Again, not fair.  So when Colorado is ready to stop wallowing in pity, and wants to have money for everything, schools included, we could do that if we wanted to.  We just would rather cry and scream about the problem and the cuts, because that&#8217;s what we have learned to do. . . . but probably not in school.</p>
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		<title>By: Parent of two</title>
		<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks/comment-page-1#comment-2693</link>
		<dc:creator>Parent of two</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ednewscolorado.org/?p=2694#comment-2693</guid>
		<description>Thank you TwoBagger McHomely...
It&#039;s nice to hear from someone with budget experience and relating it to every industry involved in the planning.  It&#039;s also nice to hear that the class size has a marginal effect on children&#039;s productivity.  We moved here from a high ranking school district in in Pennsylvania to Highlands Ranch, Colorado.  My son had smaller class sizes and two Paraprofessionals per class in Pennsylvania and now has 27 children in his class and NO Paraprofessionals.  Both my son and daughter have learned more here than in Pennsylvania and engage more with a diverse population.  The school my children attend now relies heavily on parent volunteers and that seems to make a huge difference.

I would enjoy hearing more from you regarding this issue?  Do you blog?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you TwoBagger McHomely&#8230;<br />
It&#8217;s nice to hear from someone with budget experience and relating it to every industry involved in the planning.  It&#8217;s also nice to hear that the class size has a marginal effect on children&#8217;s productivity.  We moved here from a high ranking school district in in Pennsylvania to Highlands Ranch, Colorado.  My son had smaller class sizes and two Paraprofessionals per class in Pennsylvania and now has 27 children in his class and NO Paraprofessionals.  Both my son and daughter have learned more here than in Pennsylvania and engage more with a diverse population.  The school my children attend now relies heavily on parent volunteers and that seems to make a huge difference.</p>
<p>I would enjoy hearing more from you regarding this issue?  Do you blog?</p>
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		<title>By: K-12 cut now looks like $431 million &#124; EdNewsColorado</title>
		<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks/comment-page-1#comment-2610</link>
		<dc:creator>K-12 cut now looks like $431 million &#124; EdNewsColorado</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 02:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ednewscolorado.org/?p=2694#comment-2610</guid>
		<description>[...] Districts begin planning cuts [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Districts begin planning cuts [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Twobagger McHomely</title>
		<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks/comment-page-1#comment-2607</link>
		<dc:creator>Twobagger McHomely</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ednewscolorado.org/?p=2694#comment-2607</guid>
		<description>I am a fellow who has had years of experience reviewing school district budgets. I am very familiar with the broad issues and I have seen the warts under the proverbial party dress.  Following are some responses to the questions and comments posed above:

Jasmine,
The state budget is smaller due to the economy&#039;s affect on tax revenue.  Cuts are being made to all parts of the budget including education, prisons, roads, etc.  Money is not being taken from K-12 education to give to another part of the state budget.

Larry,
An argument can be made for all budget areas being cut that they are the most important.  Certainly keeping sexual predators and sociopaths in prison is important to the general population and truckers are probably very worried about having safe roads to transport their loads over.  K-12 education is certainly important but we cannot treat it as a sacred cow at the expense of all other budget needs.

Elizabeth,
School budget cuts always affect administration salaries and positions at a dramatically higher rate than teachers.  Maintenance also bears a disproportionate brunt of budget cuts when revenue is short.  Up to now teachers have suffered the least in terms of salary and benefit reductions.  In fact, both teachers salaries and benefits nearly always go up, and never down, even when the rest of the workforce is experiencing pay reductions and job losses.

Suzanne,
A careful examination of available data indicate that, yes, we can have most of it.  Studies have shown that smaller classrooms have only a marginal impact on student achievement.  More important to academic achievement are a teacher&#039;s classroom management skills.  Since the inception of CSAP and high stakes accountability Colorado has gone from around 45th out of 51 (50 states and DC) to around 10th in academic achievement as measured by the NAEP test.  Colorado has made steady gains nearly every year without significant increases in our K-12 education funding.  There is no correlation between education funding and academic achievement at the state level, the district level, nor the school level.  There is a very strong correlation though between high stakes accountability and academic achievement.

Teacher education and training is more on par with RN nurses than lawyers.  There are MA&#039;s and PhD&#039;s in both professions but graduate studies are not necessary for teachers and nurses but being a lawyer without graduate schooling is an impossibility.  If we compare the average salaries and benefits of teachers and nurses you would find that teachers earn more yet work only about 75% as many days per year.  Both professions have those who work overtime and all have to get professional development training as part of their profession.  Teachers are responsible for student learning and nurses are responsible for the health of their patients both of which are stressful occupations.  The biggest difference is that highly effective non-union nurses can increase their pay early in their careers compared to union teachers.  Also, mediocre nurses can be fired whereas teacher unions make getting rid of mediocre teachers nearly impossible.


My responses are made simply with the intent to inform and should in no way be seen as an attack on any individual.  Education and education funding issues are charged with rhetoric and misinformation.  We will not be able to solve the problems facing education unless we are able to confront the facts. Only then we will be able to see our education system compete with the other industrialized countries who spend far less on education yet whip us at academic achievement.  There are many problems confronting education but increasing funding will not solve them.  

Overall labor costs for school districts take up 80% of school district budgets as noted in the article. Teacher salaries and benefits make up 70% of school district budgets (only 10% of the budget goes to paraprofessionals, custodians, bus drivers, maintenance workers, office clerks, nurses, principals, administrators, etc.).  That is why it will be impossible to make the necessary district budget realignments without affecting teacher salaries, benefits, or jobs.  

Teachers always want pay increases (who doesn&#039;t?) but they adamantly refuse to have it tied to improved academic outcomes for their students.  Pay now and hope we do our job better in the future should be the unofficial motto of teacher unions.  In closing I&#039;ll leave you with this question: If you received a pay increase (that was not based on merit) would you do a better job next year?  That in a nutshell describes requests for educational funding increases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a fellow who has had years of experience reviewing school district budgets. I am very familiar with the broad issues and I have seen the warts under the proverbial party dress.  Following are some responses to the questions and comments posed above:</p>
<p>Jasmine,<br />
The state budget is smaller due to the economy&#8217;s affect on tax revenue.  Cuts are being made to all parts of the budget including education, prisons, roads, etc.  Money is not being taken from K-12 education to give to another part of the state budget.</p>
<p>Larry,<br />
An argument can be made for all budget areas being cut that they are the most important.  Certainly keeping sexual predators and sociopaths in prison is important to the general population and truckers are probably very worried about having safe roads to transport their loads over.  K-12 education is certainly important but we cannot treat it as a sacred cow at the expense of all other budget needs.</p>
<p>Elizabeth,<br />
School budget cuts always affect administration salaries and positions at a dramatically higher rate than teachers.  Maintenance also bears a disproportionate brunt of budget cuts when revenue is short.  Up to now teachers have suffered the least in terms of salary and benefit reductions.  In fact, both teachers salaries and benefits nearly always go up, and never down, even when the rest of the workforce is experiencing pay reductions and job losses.</p>
<p>Suzanne,<br />
A careful examination of available data indicate that, yes, we can have most of it.  Studies have shown that smaller classrooms have only a marginal impact on student achievement.  More important to academic achievement are a teacher&#8217;s classroom management skills.  Since the inception of CSAP and high stakes accountability Colorado has gone from around 45th out of 51 (50 states and DC) to around 10th in academic achievement as measured by the NAEP test.  Colorado has made steady gains nearly every year without significant increases in our K-12 education funding.  There is no correlation between education funding and academic achievement at the state level, the district level, nor the school level.  There is a very strong correlation though between high stakes accountability and academic achievement.</p>
<p>Teacher education and training is more on par with RN nurses than lawyers.  There are MA&#8217;s and PhD&#8217;s in both professions but graduate studies are not necessary for teachers and nurses but being a lawyer without graduate schooling is an impossibility.  If we compare the average salaries and benefits of teachers and nurses you would find that teachers earn more yet work only about 75% as many days per year.  Both professions have those who work overtime and all have to get professional development training as part of their profession.  Teachers are responsible for student learning and nurses are responsible for the health of their patients both of which are stressful occupations.  The biggest difference is that highly effective non-union nurses can increase their pay early in their careers compared to union teachers.  Also, mediocre nurses can be fired whereas teacher unions make getting rid of mediocre teachers nearly impossible.</p>
<p>My responses are made simply with the intent to inform and should in no way be seen as an attack on any individual.  Education and education funding issues are charged with rhetoric and misinformation.  We will not be able to solve the problems facing education unless we are able to confront the facts. Only then we will be able to see our education system compete with the other industrialized countries who spend far less on education yet whip us at academic achievement.  There are many problems confronting education but increasing funding will not solve them.  </p>
<p>Overall labor costs for school districts take up 80% of school district budgets as noted in the article. Teacher salaries and benefits make up 70% of school district budgets (only 10% of the budget goes to paraprofessionals, custodians, bus drivers, maintenance workers, office clerks, nurses, principals, administrators, etc.).  That is why it will be impossible to make the necessary district budget realignments without affecting teacher salaries, benefits, or jobs.  </p>
<p>Teachers always want pay increases (who doesn&#8217;t?) but they adamantly refuse to have it tied to improved academic outcomes for their students.  Pay now and hope we do our job better in the future should be the unofficial motto of teacher unions.  In closing I&#8217;ll leave you with this question: If you received a pay increase (that was not based on merit) would you do a better job next year?  That in a nutshell describes requests for educational funding increases.</p>
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		<title>By: Suzanne</title>
		<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks/comment-page-1#comment-2601</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ednewscolorado.org/?p=2694#comment-2601</guid>
		<description>The state and districts, for that matter, seem to want it all. low class sizes, high test scores and high academic standards, but all with no money and with less teachers.  This state can&#039;t have it all!  That much money cannot be cut out of public education with no consequences.  Part of what made teaching attractive was lower salaries to start, but decent benefits at the end.  No longer!  The average teacher has the same amount of training and education as a lawyer, are their salaries targeted for cuts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The state and districts, for that matter, seem to want it all. low class sizes, high test scores and high academic standards, but all with no money and with less teachers.  This state can&#8217;t have it all!  That much money cannot be cut out of public education with no consequences.  Part of what made teaching attractive was lower salaries to start, but decent benefits at the end.  No longer!  The average teacher has the same amount of training and education as a lawyer, are their salaries targeted for cuts?</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks/comment-page-1#comment-2579</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ednewscolorado.org/?p=2694#comment-2579</guid>
		<description>The question that comes to my mind is...If teachers salaries are cut, are administrators INCLUDING the superintendent going to have an equal percent reduced from their salaries?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question that comes to my mind is&#8230;If teachers salaries are cut, are administrators INCLUDING the superintendent going to have an equal percent reduced from their salaries?</p>
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		<title>By: Teaching Jobs - Colorado (CO) - City-Data Forum</title>
		<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks/comment-page-1#comment-2556</link>
		<dc:creator>Teaching Jobs - Colorado (CO) - City-Data Forum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 23:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ednewscolorado.org/?p=2694#comment-2556</guid>
		<description>[...] Colorado is cutting all k-12 budgets between 4%-9% next year. Many districts are laying off teachers. Most are definitely not hiring new teachers. Colorado would not be a good place to look for a teaching job right now. Districts begin tough budget talks &#124; EdNewsColorado [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Colorado is cutting all k-12 budgets between 4%-9% next year. Many districts are laying off teachers. Most are definitely not hiring new teachers. Colorado would not be a good place to look for a teaching job right now. Districts begin tough budget talks | EdNewsColorado [...]</p>
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		<title>By: larry</title>
		<link>http://www.ednewscolorado.org/2010/01/29/2694-districts-begin-tough-budget-talks/comment-page-1#comment-2555</link>
		<dc:creator>larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 23:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ednewscolorado.org/?p=2694#comment-2555</guid>
		<description>Whats more important than education.....? What about the the teachers that have 5 ssn students and not enough PERA&#039;s to help them. Or no PERA&#039;s for that matter. Sounds like the state wants better roads than educated students, and the teachers available to make an impact in the students edu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whats more important than education&#8230;..? What about the the teachers that have 5 ssn students and not enough PERA&#8217;s to help them. Or no PERA&#8217;s for that matter. Sounds like the state wants better roads than educated students, and the teachers available to make an impact in the students edu.</p>
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